iiinova — where your digital self keeps evolving

Thanks again for this exchange, and I hope we can find a format to keep the discussion alive. These topics deserve more than a few fleeting posts.

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On this last point, by the way, Nik Matheou has a very thoughtful review article coming out soon in the English Historical Review. Definitely worth reading when it’s out.

Another sign of these unconscious prejudices is the recurring urge to explain Mongol violence in the conquest period. As far as I know, no sedentary empire conquered territory by handing out flowers to local populations.

Curiously, this “brain-drain” narrative always has to be emphasised in the case of the Mongols, whereas for the Romans, the British, the Chinese, or any other sedentary empire makers we rarely feel the need to justify the same dynamic.

Yes, the Mongols needed help in specific tasks (e.g. taxing sedentary populations, or setting up their postal system in the Caucasus). But they excelled at identifying and integrating the right people for the job.

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The second point is what Lenny summarised brilliantly: “the assumption that the Mongols are not civilised enough to run their own state.” That idea is part of a broader sedentary bias against nomads that still shapes much of our field.

Simon pointed to a pervasive Euro- or Westcentrism (if that’s a term), while I tried to bring up our tendency to project modern categories of nation, language and ethnicity onto premodern contexts. Both habits are deeply entrenched and equally problematic.

Still, I’d like to pick up on two threads I found particularly stimulating. The first concerns the 19th-century or colonial legacies of our disciplines, and the dual consequences they carry for our understanding of the past.

Our exchange touched on at least 3–4 major issues that each deserve a workshop or roundtable of their own. I’m not sure Bluesky is the ideal forum to explore them in depth, I’m not active enough here to do that meaningfully.

First of all, thank you both. Over the past two days, your thoughts kept me reflecting on questions that lie at the heart of our broader field. They were so engaging they even helped distract me during a long dentist appointment today.

Secondly, in an extremely interdisciplinary field as ours, it is important to be tolerant of others' 'mistakes', because we will undoubtedly make similar ones if we venture beyond our own disciplinary boundaries. In other words, does anyone remember how many source languages are discussed in CHME?

All this said, I just want to make two points. Firstly, historical reality is usually much more complex than the purist linguistic attitudes inherent in most of our disciplines due to their 19th-century origins would suggest. (I often catch myself being influenced by them too...)

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This language policy resulted in a situation in which, in most of the territories of the empire, most of the administrators referred to the postal system as 'yam', while most taxpayers and administrators probably called it 'zhan' or one of its Chinese variants.

They only introduced Mongolian at the highest levels, and sometimes quite late. For example, from the Chaghataid Ulus, we have a decree issued in the name of Arigh Böqe in Old Uyghur from 1259, whereas the earliest datable Mongolian decree is from the early 14th century, if I am not mistaken.

but we might don't want to represent more puristic linguistic views than the Mongols did. At least they had seemingly no problem with that in the jam-system elčis were riding ulagha. We also know, that the Mongols let the local administrative languages in usage in the local and regional levels,

I mean, I have been thinking about this system for a while, and the y-/j-spelling isn't even among the top fifty most interesting questions I have. Perhaps at this point it would be good to mention some intentionally provocative thoughts :) Philological accuracy is essential,

As always, accurate :) I think it's an acceptable approach to use the 'jam' spelling when talking about the YMU — if I'm not mistaken, I mostly used it as well — but I don't mind if someone uses a different spelling, as long as we understand each other.

Márton Vér @acbars.bsky.social · 12/07/2025

The Turkic (Old Uyghur) pronunciation is also "yam", and as many peculiarities of the early Mongol relay system and a good deal of it's terminology goes back to it's Central Asian predecessors, I don't see it as a major problem.

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the Jackmeister: Mongol History @jackmeistermongols.bsky.social · 26/02/2025

The Digitales Turfan Archiv, Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademische der Wissenschaften, has digistised collections of the various materials found in Turfan, including Mongolian and Uyghur materials of the Mongol Empire. #Mongolsky #tengri #mongolempire

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Invisible East @invisibleeast.bsky.social · 26/02/2025

📢 The latest 'Document of the Month' is available now at invisibleeast.web.ox.ac.uk. Mateen Arghandehpour writes on a land sale deed in Old Uyghur. 🔍 Find this - and nearly 300 new #documents - in the third release on www.invisible-east.org! #digitalhumanities #olduyghur #medievalsky #skystorians

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Gulsen Kilci @gulsenk.bsky.social · 19/02/2025

Hâte d'y être !

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Alexis Lycas @lxslcs.bsky.social · 11/02/2025

Should be out this coming Spring: Documents géographiques de Dunhuang. Guides et traités illustrés, topographies et recueils du Moyen Âge chinois. Paris: Collège de France, 2005

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Of course, Erdal's 'Old Turkic Word Formation' and 'Grammar of Old Turkic' are also indispensable, but they are more for specialists.

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We should have an accessible Old Uyghur grammar, preferably in English, but this is still a task for the future. If I am not mistaken, the 3rd edition of Gabain's grammar from 1974 is an expanded version. I have a pdf if you need it.

Yael Rice @yaelrice.bsky.social · 26/01/2025

Gabain's book is still a must-read in Old Uyghur studies, which shows a serious deficit in the field, considering that the Berlin Turfantexte series alone has published more than 20 volumes of Old Uyghur translations since 1971.

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So this is really cool: a stamp impression from the library of the Ilkhanid vizier Rashid al-Din (d. 1318). It reads “pious endowment [waqf] of the Rashidiyya library,” & it may have been inspired by Chinese prints/stamps. Stamped waqf notices are totally unheard of for this time!

Detail from an Arabic-language manuscript showing a waqf stamp impression from the library of Rashid al-Din

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As a secondary meaning T(ä)ŋri is also listed as part of personal names on p 697 in the print version of the dictionary.

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For t(ä)ŋri it has 'Gott, Gottheit, Himmel, Firmament, ehrwürdig' (p. 695 in the printed version). The translation depends always on the context but in this case I think this translation is fine.

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univerlag.uni-goettingen.de

For Old Uyghur I would recommend to consult the dictionary of Jens Wilkens that you can download from here: univerlag.uni-goettingen.de/handle/3/isb...

Handwörterbuch des Altuigurischen

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Márton Vér @acbars.bsky.social · 10/01/2025

Thanks for the nudge, Simon! I haven't been around lately due to a looming deadline, but it's best to find references like that when you're back 😊.

Colin Smith @colinsmith.bsky.social · 12/12/2024

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The fabulous, if, yes, somewhat idiosyncratic, 1979 Hungarian movie poster for “Star Wars: A New Hope”, by András Felvidéki.

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the Jackmeister: Mongol History @jackmeistermongols.bsky.social · 04/12/2024

I gave the @fallofcivspod.bsky.social some assistance on this project. It's an impressive six hours long overview of the Mongol Empire; I am excited to see how he brought it all together and recommend you check it out as well! youtu.be/YyqS9V7yHQA?...

youtu.be

19. The Mongols - Terror of the Steppe

YouTube video by Fall of Civilizations

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Unfortunately, we do not have any documents from the steppe region, but as this example shows, the narrative sources do not always provide us with the details.

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I made this map showing the toponyms attested in Old Uyghur postal and administrative documents. As you can see, the network is much denser here.

If you look at the Uyghur territories, there is only one major route going from Hami to Beshbaliq and from there to Changbaliq

The density of the postal network is a very interesting question. As I see, the narrative and documentary sources show quite different pictures. For example this map was made on the basis of the data of Yuan sources. www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/...

arcgis.com

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The Postal Roads of the Great Khans in Central Asia under the Mongol-Yuan Empire

Modern Qazaqstan is beyond the scope of the Old Uyghur postal documents because they deal with local or regional issues in the Eastern Tianshan region. In this article, Hosung Shim has collected data from narrative sources on the jam system in Central Asia: www.academia.edu/33897664/The...

academia.edu

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Temüjin started with around the same amount of people at Baljuna! 😂