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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

No, my first response was to explain that I didn’t provide thought experiments, I provided analogies, a concept you still seem to have trouble with.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

Now you’re just embarrassing yourself.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

I’m not arguing you should need a poll to be against genocide, but none of these headlines tell us if Harris’s chances of winning would have improved or worsened if she’d changed her position, which is presumably what your arguing here. Her own polling presumably said it wouldn’t have helped.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

Some of the headlines are from before the primaries, not exactly a snapshot of opinion from people focused on the election. And no, I disagree with plenty of things that aren’t fake news, but bad, irrelevant and dated polls aren’t persuasive.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

Several don’t support the claim that Harris changing her position on Gaza would have helped her, e.g., Biden and Harris did call for a ceasefire and diplomacy, and Americans believing the US is too involved in foreign wars and affairs doesn’t mean they wanted Harris to change her position on Israel.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

All I know about the polls is what’s in the headlines, and those don’t tell us much. I recognize some of the headlines about arms embargoes as being from advocacy group polls (IMEU) that keep floating around and treated as gospel by advocates despite obvious bias.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

Ah, sorry! I didn’t realize you were making a shitty lawyer joke.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

But nothing you said undermines my analogies or refutes the points they made, and trying to fancy-up a lousy argument like yours is, to use an analogy, like putting lipstick on a pig (also not something I think you actually did, just an analogy I’m using to make a point about how ridiculous it is).

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

But instead of just saying “I don’t like when people make a point by proposing a fiction (hypothetical) analogous to the facts,” you tried to make your argument sound fancier by using words that don’t make much sense in this context like “counter-factual” and “binary framing” and “false dichotomy.”

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 4h

Again, I didn’t pose a thought experiment. The original trolley problem is a thought experiment. It has no “right” answer. Instead, I provided two analogies. One based on apples, one modifying the trolley problem to make it an analogy. It seems like your complaint is with analogies in general.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 5h

That makes about as much sense as anything else you’ve said to me.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 5h

I already asked you not to do this.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 5h

P.S., if, as I suspect, you ARE just talking out of your ass I’d appreciate it if you’d just stop instead of trying to explain your way out of it by continuing to talk out of your ass.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 5h

The trolley problem is a thought experiment. The analogies I provided were . . . analogies. And feel free to explain how I attempted to “swap factual scenarios for counter-factual scenarios . . . to frame around a false dichotomy” because to me it sounds like you’re talking out of your ass.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 5h

Oh good, someone rolled out the pic of headlines from shoddy pre-election polls designed by pro-Palestinian advocacy groups to say exactly what those groups wanted them to say (as with most advocacy group polls). I’m not having that fight again.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 5h

I said you believe genocide was inevitable no matter which candidate won. As in, at the election, genocide was ongoing and you believe it would’ve continued whether Harris or Trump won. I’ve explained why I believe Uncommitted impacted the general. I’m not rehashing b/c you can’t be bothered.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

1. Wait, are you reading my mind? What number am I thinking. . . No! YOU don’t think I don’t think that! So there! 2. Yes, as explained in my original reply to (1) and b/c everyone who didn’t vote reduced the number fascists needed to get first past the post. 3) Sure, Jan. Compelling stuff.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

YOU fucking vote for the option that doesn’t kill MORE people than those you’ve already written off to inevitable genocide. If you think I’m a sociopath for using an analogy, take a look in the mirror and tell me what you think of the guy who didn’t bother to vote to stop Trump’s rampage of horrors.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

The whole point of the apple analogy is to demonstrate that when you remove the emotional weight of genocide (which you all contend was inevitable no matter who got elected) out of the problem and look at it logically, you come to the exact conclusion YOU came to.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

And it doesn’t take place in the real world so it doesn’t really matter, but the trolley problem isn’t “set up”, it’s a runaway trolley and people don’t have time to get off the track, but the switchman has time to pull the lever.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

There wasn’t supposed to be a “right” answer to the trolley problem! That’s what makes it an effective thought experiment - you have to grapple with it! JFC! That’s why my analogy wasn’t the fucking trolley problem - there’s an obvious answer!

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

1) I think assholes who shit on Harris when her opponent was a fucking fascist helped suppress the Democratic vote and killed any chance to overcome the odds and win. 2) No shit, that’s my point. Not voting didn’t change anything about Israel. It just helped US fascists. 3) Sure, Jan.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 6h

How is the trolley problem bullshit? It’s a thought experiment intended to pose an ethical question. And how is the apple analogy worse? Use your words, man. We already know how you answered. You’d vote for one apple.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 7h

Fine, if it makes you understand this better, the first apple is genocide by Israeli fascists. The second apple is American fascism. It doesn’t change the analogy and throwing away your vote still didn’t stop you from having to eat the first apple (Israeli fascism/genocide), so what’s your point?

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 7h

What the fuck are you talking about? What wasn’t a question of personal taste? I’m having a very hard time sticking to my promise to stop using the word stupid to describe people right now.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 7h

No one is diminishing the death of those people. I’m saying that if you can’t save them and can save others, you should. TBC, by throwing away your vote, YOU said “those people are already dead, so I won’t lift a goddamn finger to save anyone else.” And you call ME a sociopath? Fuck off.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 7h

There’s only one trolley problem. Some jackass on here said my incredibly simple apple analogy was the trolley problem and I explained how it wasn’t. Then modified it so the most ignorant person on here could understand it and you still didn’t. No wonder you think burning your vote is a good idea.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 7h

No, I modified it to match the reality i’m analogizing you fucking mook.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 9h

Still don’t get it? Really? The trolley kills the first person NO MATTER WHAT. They’re before the track switch so they can’t be saved. After the switch is (1) an empty track and (2) a track with a person on it. Of course I’m going to vote for the empty track. How are you this obtuse?

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 9h

How do you think? If you’d bothered to read the hypothetical, you’d know that only one of the tracks after the switch has anyone on it. If my family was before the switch I couldn’t save them, but it wouldn’t stop me from saving someone else by the simple act of voting.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 9h

Why does that matter for purposes of our conversation or this hypothetical? You believe they would have died no matter who won the election, so those deaths are part of the genocide that is represented by the first apple/trolley victim. We both know I would vote to eat one apple/switch tracks.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 17h

So we’re better off with Trump? Is that what multiple people say? Are Palestinians better off with Trump? Iranians? Venezuelans? Central and South American fishermen? People starving due to cut off food aid? People getting measles? People facing climate change while Trump guts clean energy? Etc.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 17h

We don’t know what would’ve happened, but anti-Israel sentiment strengthened. I believe she would’ve felt more pressure to act. I get that you don’t believe that, but it just takes us back to: if there wasn’t a “no genocide” option, why not vote to protect the millions predictably hurt by Trump 2?

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 17h

You believe Harris changing her position would have helped more than it hurt - she didn’t believe that. And there’s no evidence that’s the case except shoddy pre-election advocacy group polls designed to produce that outcome. She lost to inflation, anti-incumbency and because people didn’t vote.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 17h

It meant Harris would have been president and would have had the final say on anything they wanted to do. I wouldn’t like it, but I believe Harris would not have offered a position to MAGA, but to some anti-Trump GOPer (not much better, but the obsession with appearing bipartisan is hard to crack).

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 18h

Well I guess if you say so. 🫠

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

No you incurious mook. I believe pointing out politicians were breaking laws 2 years ago does as much to change the reality that those laws weren’t getting enforced 2 years ago as pointing out that aliens could’ve come 2 years ago and turned all of earth’s weapons into flowers.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

I voted for Harris, believing that she was the only option to reduce harm and possibly stop Israeli genocide and expansion. And then as now, I criticized anyone who claimed doing otherwise would help anyone but the fascists. But many didn’t listen and more focused on inflation. So we got fascists.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

I didn’t have a role in the campaign that would’ve given me any influence over her policy positions. I phone banked and knocked on doors. I talked to plenty of people upset and angry about Gaza and I told them the same thing I’m telling you. So yes, I took my own advice.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

So I supported my pro-Palestinian Congressman, volunteering for his primary campaign, which he lost to a AIPAC corporate stooge. And I volunteered for Harris and kept my views on Harris’s Gaza position off of social media, where there was already plenty of fuel undermining Harris (see Undecided).

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

And I believed, right or wrong, that they could be convinced to change their positions on Israel and fighting Bibi. So from my perspective, anything that weakened them was counterproductive both for Palestinians and for everyone else now suffering and dying under Trump’s White Supremacist fascism.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

I knew if Trump won there wouldn’t be even milquetoast stern warnings and threats holding Bibi back or getting aid to Gaza. I believed Biden (and ultimately Harris) were the only candidates who could win the Dem primaries and possibly defeat the fascists.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

Ah yes, deflection. If only I had been more active on BlueSky all of this would’ve been averted. I’ll explain my thinking, but it won’t satisfy you. I was struggling with the scope of Israel’s brutality and my Jewish identity, but ultimately concluded Israel was engaged in genocide and imperialism.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

No, you ignored what I said. The US could’ve tried to enforce international humanitarian law against Israel, but they didn’t, so pointing out it’s illegal is as practically effective as calling Trump’s war on Iran illegal or waiting for that peace-loving alien. You did nothing to stop the fascists.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 19h

According to most of the people arguing with me, the genocide would’ve continued no matter which of the two viable candidates was elected. So feel free to explain to me what real life, viable option represented the brake in the 2024 election. Honestly baffling how much trouble people have with this.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 20h

Sure, and an alien could’ve come down and turned the bombs into flowers. But in reality there were two viable options on the ballot. If you didn’t choose one of them, you were just letting others choose for you. You knew one of the options was a fascist, but you did nothing. Bravo. So fucking brave.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 20h

You drop into my replies, rage at me without actually addressing any of my arguments, then tell me to fuck off like you weren’t the one who dropped into my replies. Don’t be a fucking baby. A PSL vote was choosing to let someone else choose fascism. Nothing noble or brave about it.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 20h

🤦‍♂️ I responded to you completely. I even explained why my analogy WASN’T the trolley problem and I modified the trolley problem to line up with my analogy. I’m not claiming it’s new, I’m pointing out you don’t seem to understand it. So go ahead, explain what’s wrong with my logic. I’ll wait. . .

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 20h

Who was the third viable option on the ballot in 2024? I don’t deal in fantasy. If you believe genocide was inevitable whether you choose Trump or Harris, you should’ve chosen Harris for 1000 other reasons. Abstaining or voting third party was just a choice to let other people choose for you.

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loafsta.bsky.social @loafsta.bsky.social · 20h

That the green energy transition would be gutted and we’d invade Venezuela and shrink US national monuments for the benefit of oil interests? That we’d be silent in the face of the sacking of El Fasher by a UAE-supported genocidal militia? And on and on and on. . .

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