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I agree but I think you've already decided that trans people are misguided & deserve sympathy & pity but not rights (love the sinner, hate the sin?). I guess I've made my mind up too!

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I don't think you've engaged with the ones I've shared so I think I'll leave it there, thank you.

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Yes of course & sexuality is fluid too. It shouldnt be a case of affrim *or* support. They are not binary choices (see article). Seeing being trans as akin to anorexia logically leads to conversion therapy which is where we started. Being trans is not a mental illness (neither was being gay)

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In simple terms, they know they're not the sex they were assigned at birth, in the same way that a cis person knows they are! I feel like we're hoping round in circles. Perhaps you should read more trans literature or speak to more trans folk (who're just as diverse as anyone else)

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I think it's both more and less flexible actually, dependibg on context. With respect, this is exactly the kind of questions people used to ask of L&G people to prevent equalising the age of consent. How would a teen know they're gay?

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It's a very common & outdated misconception that being trans is just about gender norms. It's deeper & more fundamental than that. There's alot more flexibility for womens gender norms but there's still plenty of trans men. Trans people have always existed regardless of prevailing gender norms.

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I think we need both. The problem seems to be that I wholeheartedly accept we need to be more accepting of diverse expressions of maleness (& femaleness). But you don't appear willing to accept that trans women (& men) also need to be accepted (& not dismissed as pretending, fakes or dangerous).

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But, according to your logic, *all* trans women are 'pretending' to be women! So you're only willing to be inclusive on your own terms which, by definition, doesn't accept certain people.

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Of course. That's why we need more gender choices like non-binary, gender fluid, agender etc. 😊

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We need to do both. Why exclude some women (trans women) from being women? Yes, we need to extend the bandwidth of masculinty & femininity (& what it means to be male & female). But people dont transition cos the bandwidth isn't wide enough cos being trans isn't just about masculinity & femininity.

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Agree 💯 thank you. Its important to discuss these things openly, honestly & respectfully 😊

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Peter Tatchell Foundation @petertatchellfdn.bsky.social · 07/12/2025

Absolutely. We definetely need to expand the category of men to include all men including feminine men, trans men and all kinds of men. How to include trans women more effectively in society? Firstly, it'd help not to call them men! More love & acceptance all round!

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Reposted by Hel Spandler

📚 Someone actually tried to ban a book because it promotes the “ideology” of… coming out Yes, apparently, being honest about who you are is now a dangerous political agenda Truly, we are living in the golden age of nonsense

lgbtqnation.com

Someone tried to ban a book because it supports the "ideology" of coming out. They got shut down. - LGBTQ Nation

"When people look at the world through a filter that says there is a gay agenda, they will find one."

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Which means trans women are not men, just like adopted (or other) mothers are not childless, they've just taken a different route to being a mother. They're room for us all, right?

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Yes, just like birth mothers & adopted/other mothers are both kinds of mothers. Just like we need to expand the category of mother we need to expand the category of woman. We can still recognise, protect & celebrate our differences without denying trans people's existence.

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Not really no. It is true & it is a big deal, especially for the mums (or dads) and the women (or men) involved. One has (usually, but not always) given birth so they might be a birth mother, but they're both mothers. Rather like cis & trans women. The beauty of human diversity! 😊 🌈

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To me, the parallels are very clear. Think about it! 😊

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If you have no problem referring to them both as mothers or fathers (despite biology), why not refer to people who have transitioned as male or female (despite biology)? Or does biology only matter in some cases and not others?

I'm still confused. So you're now saying they *can* be two mothers or two fathers then, despite 'biology'? Good. By that logic, we can be trans, right? Phew, we got there in the end! Biology isnt destiny! 😊

Now that's confusing! So if two women have children together one has to be the father? I guess you can see how that would be considered homophobic. This clearly shows how transphobia & homophobia work together & (often comes from the fundamentalist religious right).

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I'm trying to make the point that homophobia & transphobia are deeply linked & entangled. Some would consider the refusal to see two women (or two men) having children together as mothers & fathers as homophobic. I think that would be reasonable, don't you?

Then you'll know the answer depends on what you mean by 'affirm'. I certainly wouldn't deny it.

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No, but are you saying that means they're not mothers & fathers?

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Yes of course. Can you see the parellel?

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Genuine question. Do you believe that two women or two men can have children together? Are they mothers & fathers?

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Curiosity & an open mind to all possibilities without thinking one outcome is preferable and another is undesirable or impossible.

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Yes, but not if the assumption is that you can't be trans. What if they can gain self acceptance by accepting they are trans & transitioning? Lots of LGBs had distress about their sexuality & that's why some submitted to things like aversion therapy

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Biology is complex! Sex involves primary & secondary sex characteristics, hormones, chromosomes etc. Most of that can change. What can't change is chromosomes, but that is also complex. Most people don't even know what their chromosomal make-up is! (and it's often not what we assume). 😊

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I don't think LGBT+ people should be treated, electrocuted, persuaded or analysed to prevent them being LGBT. That is conversion therapy.

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Barbaric yes, agreed. But many psychotherapists & analysts tried to change people's sexuality & gender too. More subtle, but also harmful. Aversion therapy treated so-called transvestites *and* transsexuals. Aversion therapists thought being trans was just about "wearing dresses" too.

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Excellent documentary. Unfortunately alot of the media coverage keeps just referring to sexuality, not sexuality *and* gender thus erasing Trans folk. Then, some complain that they referried to LGBT in the first place! Justice for all LGBT+ survivors!

"If the ‘undesirable’ behaviour they presented with was ‘homosexuality’, then the stimuli used were homoerotic. If they presented with ‘transvestite’ or ‘transsexual’ behaviours, then the stimuli centred on ‘cross-dressing’" (Davidson et al. 2024)

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They showed her pictures of women, 'female' clothes etc.

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I'm so sorry you went through this. Its such an awful time for trans women at the moment its so important this history isn't erased. You can email me at hspandler@lancashire.ac.uk. 😊

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An Inclusive History of LGBTQ+ Aversion Therapy: Past Harms and Future Address in a UK Context - Kate Davison, Katherine Hubbard, Sarah Marks, Hel Spandler, Rebecca Wynter, 2025

Carolyn is a (trans) woman & underwent the same procedure to try and 'treat' her gender expression & identity. She is one of many sadly. That is why the programme is correct to call it LGBT aversion therapy. It was used to treat sexuality *and* gender. journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/...

journals.sagepub.com

From the 1950s, aversion therapy gained an international foothold as a behaviourist means to alter what was then considered ‘deviant’ behaviour. Using primary r...

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It's a continuum. Any therapy which tries to stop peoole being LGB or T is conversion therapy. Talking therapy can be just as damaging if that's its aim.

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The purpose was to associate her gender expression & identity with pain & to stop her being trans. It didn't work. Just like it didn't work to stop people being gay.

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Watch the programme. Its excellent & well researched. Aversion therapy continued to be practiced *after* the (partial) decriminalisation of homosexuality. Also, research suggests more trans (feminine) people were treated with this barbaric treatment than lesbians. Justice for *all* LGBT survivors!

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Ethel Weapon @lousadzak.bsky.social · 05/12/2025

Spot on. Important to link all these threads. Eg the link with the psychopathologisation and behavioural treatment of ME/CFS & autism too 😁🙄

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Reposted by Hel Spandler

We know that this conversion practices are being built into the pathways for trans youth via the Cass model, via mandatory psych evaluations before allowing any referral, via the incorporation of conversion therapists and training materials.

transsafety.network

New Young People's Gender Clinic hires controversial Gender Exploratory Therapist

New educational lead at Great Ormond Street Hospital has previously trained psychiatrists to direct families to resources from conversion therapy groups

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