A note before you listen: this episode was recorded before I left for the Netherlands. I just spent seven days there shooting with the Three Amigos, Jacqueline Graham, Keilan McNeil, Jade Alectra and Ivo van Woerden, along with a number of other people who are essential to telling this story. A lot is coming. But first, this. Ivo van Woerden is a Dutch journalist who has spent the better part of five years investigating Bentinho Massaro. He interviewed over 60 people. He was publicly called out by Massaro on Instagram before he'd even published a word, his name and handle broadcast to thousands of followers in what felt, as Ivo puts it, genuinely threatening. He kept going anyway. The result is "In de Greep van de Goeroe," "In the Grip of the Guru," published this week and available now in Dutch. In this conversation, Ivo and I cover a lot of ground: how he found Massaro, what Massaro's public callout of him actually felt like, his own undercover experience inside a high-control group, the WhatsApp messages between Massaro and former girlfriend Alison that are as chilling as anything in this story, the psychology of Cory Katuna, and the question that everyone asks and nobody can fully answer: does Bentinho Massaro believe his own mythology? Ivo is not only a phenomenal journalist. He's become a genuine friend. And the survivors, the people who lived through what this podcast is about, think the world of him. There's a reason for that, and you'll hear it in this conversation. The book is available now. If you speak Dutch, or know someone who does, go find it. Ivo's Substack - https://ivovanwoerden.substack.com/ 00:00 Teaser 01:06 Introduction: Who is Ivo van Woerden? 03:19 How Ivo found Bentinho Massaro 08:41 Massaro's public Instagram callout 12:54 Ivo's undercover experience in a high-control group 34:33 The possible psychology of Cory Katuna 37:04 True believer or calculated predator? 41:00 The WhatsApp messages: Alison and Bentinho 47:19 What Ivo would have asked Bentinho 1:02:55 Did Ivo ever feel sympathy for Massaro? 1:06:20 How to talk to someone in a cult 1:09:33 The book: "In de Greep van de Goeroe" 1:12:25 What the book ending doesn't mean The views and opinions expressed on WTF is on my Mind?! do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast or Mark Vicente. Any content provided by guests are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/MarkVicente Website: www.markvicente.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/markvicente/ X: https://x.com/markvicente TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mark_vicente Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/markvicente/

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